The First Step Interview with Brandon & Lance Kramer

Prior to The First Step's theatrical release, I got the chance to talk with Brandon and Lance Kramer, who directed and produced the documentary, respectively.

The First Step is a documentary about Van Jones, the political landscape, The First Step Act, and more.

Buy your tickets here: https://www.firststepfilm.com/screenings 

If you'd rather read the transcript, scroll below.

Me: Hello, friends of the internet! Um, so before I get started on this interview, I wanted preface and talk face to face with you. Um, the first thing you will notice in the interview that is to come, um, that I recorded about two weeks ago, um, is that there are some stops - some hard stops, and some weird edits going on. 

Um, to be fully transparent, um, what's going on there is that I was having some internet connection issues. I tried to rectify this by asking for the publicists' copy, um, of the interview, because we both, um, recorded a version of the interview and both versions had these weird cutouts to where my entire question didn't get through. It (Zoom), it, didn't...it didn't record my whole question, so, um, I'll have subtitles onscreen, hopefully, uh during this. I'm still editing this interview, so, um, that...this is the fun part of the job is navigating around these issues. But, um, so, if you want to watch the following video, uh, just turn subtitles on, uh, there should be a CC, um, icon, right about here, um, on the bottom right on YouTube. 

Um, but another option you, you'll have, um...I don't normally do this, but since um, this interview is heavily edited to get around Zoom issues, um, what I've decided to do is publish a transcript of the interview over on my website, austinb.media, as well as on my Patreon. All that'll all be there for you to read and you can read along as well as using the subtitles. Um, but yeah, if you want to go read it rather than watch it - totally fine, you have that option.

Um, another thing I wanted to preface is that because I recorded this two weeks ago, there's going to be some stuff I'm going to talk about like The First Step is just coming out. Um...well, it came out two weeks ago, and it's still expanding its theatrical rollout. Um, so, it's been out a few...um, it's had a few...uh,uh, theatrical screenings already, so just kind of keep that in mind as you watch the following interview. I'm gonna get out of your hair. Um, thanks again to the directors and producers of The First Step. It was a really enjoyable interview. But, with that, I'm gonna get out of here and let you watch the interview. Until next time!

Interview starts here!

Me: Hello, friends of the internet! I am here with Brandon and Lance Kramer. One of them is uh, the director and one of them is the producer, I believe, uh, Lance, you're the director, um, of The First Step and Brandon, you're the producer. Let me know if I got that wrong.

Lance: Other way around.

Me: Other way around. Um, uh, and it was funny - I actually made the note, director and producer in that order, respectively, um, to make sure I got it right, but I still got it wrong, um, but we're here, uh, but we're here today to talk about the documentary, uh, The First Step, um, it-it's going to be in theaters in New York and LA this weekend-on February 17th. And then, I saw on the website that you're going to be expanding week by week, um, actually-actually coming pretty close to, uh, where I live. It think the closest one is Fayetteville, uh, in March.

Lance: Where-where are you based?

Me: Uh, the closest metro area would be, um, Branson, but um there are no theaters in Branson for - that'll play actual independent movies, so it's either going to Springfield, MO, or um, going to Little Rock (Arkansas) or Fayetteville (also Arkansas), um, so, um, it's-it's playing in theaters this weekend, and then...it's been kind of a journey.

Um, I-I remember seeing The First Step constantly in my inbox. It's taken...gosh two years because I was covering Tribeca 2021, um, and I was covering AFI Docs 2021, and then Bentonville and you've showed up at like...what? 30 other film festivals, uh...in the meantime? Uh, in these, uh, two years?

Lance: I think it's actually a little over. I think it's been 41 or 42.

Me: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, but with that said...welcome both of you on this-on this long road, uh, to get it to theaters. I'm so glad it's actually getting a theatrical release. Um, when it debuted at Tribeca, I-I don't know why I always assume, um, the worst whenever something debuts at a festival, but I'm like, "Oh, it's just gonna get a streaming premiere like on HBO Max or something". Um, but I'm so glad you guys are actually getting a theatrical uh, debut.

Um, for those who don't know about The First Step, uh, it's about, um...it's about two different things. I-I would say, uh, on one part, you're telling Van Jones's story, um, and how he, uh, became who he is today, and you're also telling the story about The First Step Act, which, uh, was a bill passed in 2018. 

Um, and it's insane - one of the better political documentaries I've seen, um, since Knock Down That House (I meant Knock Down the House). I believe, um, back in...when did that come out? 2019? 2018? 2019. Something like that on Netflix. 

Um, so I-I do want to start, um, with talking about the 2016 election. Um, so what were your feelings about-in regards to, uh, compared to the 2012 or 2008 election. How was that different?

Brandon: The 2016 election was pretty different! Um, so you know, Donald Trump becoming elected president of the United States was, an uh, a horrific blow, um to at least myself, my-my family, all my friends, communities, um, you know a lot of communities that, I'm, you know, connected to. I know not for everybody, obviously. A lot of people were very happy on that day. 

Um, for-for me, it was a terrible moment, and it wasn't just what Trump stood for, but it was the growing divide and how that election just ripped it. As-as terrible as it was and as polarizing as it was, it just got a thousand times worse on that day. 

Um, and you know, we sat down with Van over a cup of tea, and you know, we had known Van for many years, and he basically told us that a lot of the people in his life were going to be opposing and fighting against this administration at all costs and he wanted to be one of the few people who was trying to reach across the aisle and see, is there any possibility that something bipartisan could happen on these issues that he's been fighting for his whole life and Lance and I, as documentary filmmakers, were very concerned about the divisions in the country. We felt like we had a relationship and access to a civil rights leader who was about to set off on a very perilous journey, um, in an incredibly divisive moment, and that would make for a very important historical document and story for the public to learn from.

Jared Kushner and Van didn't know each other. The First Step bill did not exist at this point in time, but we knew that a film that shows what bridge building in action looks like in this moment in time would be incredible instructive on some pathway forward.

Me: What I loved about the film is how it, um, portrays both sides of a community. Specifically, you go into West Virginia, and you get to see...there's this, I think...it's a lunch scene, where these two opposing sides are just talking to one another, which is this kind of a rare sight. Um, and I kind of want to ask...what, um, what lessons (you learned) during that production and how did it kind of influence, um, representation of, uh, people's political ideals in this era where it seems to be one side or the other?

Lance: I think that one of the things-one of the things I hope that comes through in the film is that...so to speak, ordinary people, grassroots leaders, the people who aren't necessarily household names, um, but who are on the front lines of many of these, you know, issues-especially something like criminal justice reform, um, or the addiction crisis that leadership from them can be the model for how leadership from, you know, state or federal nationally elected officials should behave. I think a lot of the time, we expect maybe that we're going to have an example in The White House or in The Senate or Congress or these more very visible public offices and that-that is supposed to some-somehow ripple down and in theory, or in an ideal word, it maybe should be that way, but in practice, in the world that we're living in today, uh, we don't get that all the time. 

And so, then it really is incumbent on a community level to try and not just work through these kinds of really significant problems, and-and-and divisions and differences, but also try to model how to do it differently, and I think that the beautiful thing about the people you were speaking to and speaking about in the film is that they're really doing the work. You see it right before your eyes in these very small, but I think beautiful nd power moments like in the diner that you're talking about or in the home living room of someone's home. 

And then, they're building those relationships together and then taking that example to Congress to say, "If we can do this, you guys ought to be able to do it too", and I think that kind of bottom-up approach is something that, uh, I wish we could see more of, and I think that it can be amplified there's-there's a lot of potential to have tremendous change, and it's something that actually all of us, each one of us can do.

Me: Yeah, even just, um, in another scene, you see Van Jones, which I'm envious...you can tell Van this if you ever talk to him on a regular basis. I am jealous of the little, um, library he has where he can just stand on this little platform and he just move horizontally. Um, I would that for um, a movie room. Just...here. Let me get The Silence of the Lambs. Let's just motor-get a motorized platform in here. Um, but you know, you see books by Che Guevara, um and other political leaders and he makes this, um, statement where..."How are you going to understand somebody, your opponent, if you're not listening to them?", which I thought was so intriguing. 

Um, especially you know, you talk about Jared Kushner. There's a lot of him in here, and I'm like...the first time you see him, you're just like...Wait...what? He's-Van Jones is talking to Jared Kushener? And...wait...what? That's possible that two people who fundamentally, I think, disagree with one another can just be like...oh yeah, I believe this. I believe this, I can, um, agree with you on this as a human being, which I found fascinating.

Um, kind of going backwards a little bit...um, let's talk a little bit about The First Step Act. What were your, um, what was your first encounter, for lack of a better term, with The First Step Act, or maybe even Van Jones? Whichever comes first.

Brandon: Yeah. I mean, just to speak to your earlier point about...just the shock of seeing somebody like Van Jones sitting with Jared Kushner...once we identified that we were telling a story about bridge building, it became critical. Lance and I had conversations and the conversation was, we need to do an exceptional job. Not just representing Van, but all the different actors in the story...and I say actors, not people performing but people-they're really people, obviously. And that included people on the left that vehemently opposed The First Step Act, because it did not go far enough, and it wasn't comprehensive reform. 

Somebody like Patrisse Cullors, who is the co-founder of Black Lives Matter, and it meant sharing her point of view. Not just as...not just as somebody opposed to the bill, but really trying to understand, what does it mean to be an abolitionist, but why does she oppose the bill and why is that important? She's not an antagonist in the film - she's a person with a point of view and uh, that included Jared Kushner as well as, you know, all the horrible things that the Trump Administration was doing. 

They're all in the film, but also there-you know, there are a lot people...who were, you know, or not a lot, but some people that were telling Lance and I, you know, you can't-don't just really put Jared in the movie. Don't put Kellyanne (Conway) in the movie. Don't put Trump in the movie. It's going to be too alienating to people. 

And, but-that's the reality. These people did horrible things...and yet they still worked on this bill that get tens of thousands of people released from federal prison. Van, Jessica Lewis...all the advocates that worked on this bill had to sit with that discomfort in actually being in person with these people and building these relationships, and dealing with the blowback. 

So, if they can do that in person-if somebody like Tylo James, who's an organizer in South Central LA, whose brother is incarcerated right now for a life sentence can walk and have a conversation - walk into the Trump White House and have a conversation with Kellyanne Conway, audiences should have the stomach and the wherewithal to be able to sit with that experience in a movie theater, and be able to walk out. So, that's-that's the hope and the design of the film.

It also has allowed the film to resonate with a very diverse audience base because, unlike many films on the left, where a conservative person would not typically watch it, we've screened the film in a lot of places like Arkansas and Mississippi and Iowa, where people that don't like Van-people that don't like Cory Booker or Kamala Harris or Joe Biden, they've sat and they've watched the film.

And because people that they do like - Jared Kushner, Mike Lee, Rand Paul, are in the film and are given a fair representation - they're able to actually engage with the film, and um, that's been, you know, a really meaningful experience.

Our first touch point with the bill. - I mean, we were there from the very beginning - of the - of the journey, um, I was with Van when he learned that Jared Kushner was trying to do something on Criminal Justice Reform. And you know, there's a lot of questions at that time. It's like...okay, is this just like, a smoke and mirror show? Is this - is this something genuine? And you know, Van, you know, it's his credit, he was like, "Look. I'm gonna go meet with Jared Kushner. A lot of people are giving me a hard time for doing it, but I'm gonna do it. I want to see if he's genuine on this, and if you guys want to capture that - you know, by all means...uh, you know, do that," and you know, at that first meeting, you know, you kind of like show up with a camera. 

You have no idea if you're gonna get access to anything because there's, you know, like a million different barriers to filming Jared Kushner, but you know, slowly, we were able to sort of work around that.  Like that-for that scene where you see Van and Jared meeting for the first time - that was the first meeting. You know, we're like, we're there, they're shaking hands, they're meeting each other. That's like, you know, meeting number one and, you know, sometimes as a documentary filmmaker, you just kind of had to - you have to take a leap of faith and just show up and capture it. 

Let me just say also - everyone's expectations, including mine, was that this is going to be an attempt at passing Criminal Justice Reform, not a bill that would pass. So, it was literally up until the last minute. We all thought this bill was going to fail. I'm not saying - I mean, I think Van had hope, other people had hope, but, um, you know, it literally - until the day had passed, it was like, "Okay, this is going to be a story about people trying to get something done, and it's going to be an informative story, nonetheless.", and then, um, it literally passed the day before Christmas - right before the longest government shutdown in American history. 

It was one of the last things that occurred. And you know, Van calls, "It's a Christmas miracle!". I gotta say, like, you know, whatever your father is...like, I was in the room that day. It was - it was a wild thing that actually got accomplished because Trump was wavering, and then, you know, Kim Kardashian came in and helped, and the advocates helped it get over the finish line. It was - uh, it was a strange coalition of, you know, grassroots activists who've been fighting this for decades, political leaders - some of which have been fighting it for decades, some of which where you don't expect to be fighting for Criminal Justice Reform - celebrities. I mean...it was...it was a wild rollercoaster too, uh, to bear witness to. 

Me: Yeah, it was wild times. Um, and something you know - how long has it been since filming? Are there results on how this - The First Step Act is working?

Lance: Yeah, well - the film took about three years. We were in production for about three years. We were in the edit for about two years, and it's been almost two years...it's been...you know.

Well, the bill itself has passed, has been law for about four years, and um, when the film was completed, there were just over 10,000 people - the estimates were about just over ten thousand - who had come home. And now estimates are as high as, you know, 75,000 people who have been - who are home through one aspect or another of the bills provisions.

Me: That's great. Um...

Lance: I mean, that's like...tens of thousands of people that are home with their families, um, you know, we haven't met obviously, all of them, but we've met many, and just even meeting one person who's home...you know, years or decades early probably should have never been in prison in the first place. It's-it's pretty incredible, so then when you multiply that, it's-it's-it's-it's-it's profound.

Me: Yeah, for sure. Um, I-I-I'm glad it's actually, um, doing something - um, and actually having an effect on lives with...you say ten thousand. I think that's roughly the number I think I saw at the end of the film.

Lance: Yeah.

Me: Um, um, but I'm so glad to hear it's working, uh, and I hope, uh, even if it's just for you know, maybe watching a new documentary or learning more about The First Step Act, um...I'd encourage those who you have it - have the movie in a theater near you to go see The First Step. I'll have, uh, links to the screenings in the, um, description below. Um, and I-I hope, uh, people see it...uh, in theaters. Maybe even, I hope, um, I know some theaters are doing, I believe they're doing conversations, like Q&As. I saw that you're doing one this week has a Q&A. Um...

Lance: Actually, all the theaters. So, literally every single screening of this movie will have a post-screening discussion that features either national leaders or leaders from the community where the film is being screened...and there is not a place you can see the film where that's not happening. 

So, every single presentation of the film is being programmed in partnership with organizations working on the front lines. Whether it's Criminal Justice Reform...the addiction crisis, just trying to build bridges and find common ground on anything. There's plenty of opportunities that, if you see the film, you can plug in and get involved with any of the work that these organizations are doing that''l just continues as the film also just eventually finds its home on streaming, but just for now, in the theatrical experiences.

That's the whole model.

Brandon: And if you want to find if the film is playing in a city near you, go to firststepfilm.com, and the entire list of all the theatrical screenings will be there and like Lance said, if it's not playing in a city near you, stay tuned by following the movie on @FirstStepMovie, and we'll be sharing information about where to see the film, uh, digitally, soon thereafter.

Me: Well, thank you so much for your time, Brandon and Lance, on this uh, hectic morning, uh, busy morning after the Super Bowl. Um, I hope people see this, and um, thanks again for your time.

Lance: Yeah, thank you so much for having us. Really appreciate it.

Until next time!

Thanks again to Shane Conto, Joseph Davis, David Walters, and Ambula Bula for being Patrons.